72 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

I wasn't going to say much about Forest Colony until I had played it, but now that I've seen the Phoenix Hawk preview where Sean Lang (Phil) shows us the changes, I'll just go right out and say it.

This was probably an improvement. But it was, in the words of Phil, "a slight improvement". Because, he says, as we all know, the fighting takes place in a very tiny area of the map. He also points out that to move around the mountains now is a far longer journey than before, before you get back to the fighting.

Spoiler

You know the big irony behind this change? This is the sort of evidence I would point to when I say that PGI map designers either don't know what they're doing, or they're fully aware that what they're doing is not what the players are asking for. The irony is that people wanted to level the mountains in order to spread the action all over the map.

Ironically, PGI's solution has made the pass a more viable approach, but just as another way to attack the same 'grind zone' where all the fighting was happening already. In other words, they took the one alternative route on the map and moved it closer to the 'grind zone'. So now, we have even less reason to visit the E-line and F-line. They effectively made the map smaller, in a sense.

Now, Phil's solution is to use the northern mountain range creatively to give players a reason to go there. Something like a tunnel (people have been begging for this) or a new canyon or a pass over the mountains, or a combination of these. Personally, I'd prefer an ability to climb on top of the mountains and have a plateau there, like the old comm tower plateau next to the village in G7. But I would not upset if there was a tunnel there. And I would be thrilled if they just removed the whole mountain range, but I suspect that the mountains are there so that your computer doesn't have to render everything behind those mountains.



Phil called this a "slight improvement, nothing crazy". Actuallly, one might argue that it's probably not an improvement at all. We got a more useful alternative route, which is good. But the action is now more concentrated, which is bad. So we broke even.

PGI needs to revisit this map and listen to the players more. Or just listen to Phil, he seems to have a clear idea of what's wrong with this map.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 21 June 2016 - 03:49 AM.

[Lily from animove]

make a cave again!!! dig it right through the mountains.

lower some mountain gaps to make them jumpable over. or add teracces so that a few hops make them passable.

[Sean Lang]

It's a small improvement, and I expect more like this will occur. PGI now having 3 map designers will open up the doors to quick fixes/adjustments! Looking forward to seeing changes to Bog & Terra Therma in the future!

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Sean Lang, on 21 June 2016 - 04:17 AM, said:

It's a small improvement, and I expect more like this will occur. PGI now having 3 map designers will open up the doors to quick fixes/adjustments! Looking forward to seeing changes to Bog & Terra Therma in the future!

TT would be easy to at least make interesting IMO. Just raise the heat in the volcano to the point that you'll overheat and shutdown and then die if you spend too much time there. Then it's an alternative route for flanking in fast mechs but not a great place to fight. Plus it'd be a relatively quick fix to the map while they work out a more complete solution.

[YaKillinMeSmalls]

Make Forest Colony cave again!

[MeiSooHaityu]

Sean Lang, on 21 June 2016 - 04:17 AM, said:

It's a small improvement, and I expect more like this will occur. PGI now having 3 map designers will open up the doors to quick fixes/adjustments! Looking forward to seeing changes to Bog & Terra Therma in the future!

Good to hear.

*crosses fingers*

[TheArisen]

I have to agree with this. I like the area that's the "usual" spot but the map is so much bigger than that.

[Sader325]

I was about to make this post.

I skimmed the reveal and watched this part on NGNG, and I agree. They didn't fix the problem at all.

Why did they remove the first path and add this second one? I see no reason to REMOVE the original path, when both paths could have coexisted quite easily.

The wall needs more openings, and the opening needs COVER. You realize people walking out that path now have ZERO cover? They're going to be facing people sitting out in the forest behind trees and hills, it makes little tactical sense to expose yourself trying to come through that new giant path.

So yea, I don't know what the map designers were thinking, because the new forest colony is only marginally less stupid than the old one.

[DrxAbstract]

Sader325, on 21 June 2016 - 05:38 AM, said:

I was about to make this post.

I skimmed the reveal and watched this part on NGNG, and I agree. They didn't fix the problem at all.

Why did they remove the first path and add this second one? I see no reason to REMOVE the original path, when both paths could have coexisted quite easily.

The wall needs more openings, and the opening needs COVER. You realize people walking out that path now have ZERO cover? They're going to be facing people sitting out in the forest behind trees and hills, it makes little tactical sense to expose yourself trying to come through that new giant path.

So yea, I don't know what the map designers were thinking, because the new forest colony is only marginally less stupid than the old one.

Doesn't invoking strategic decision making require a legitimate differentiation of options weighed against various factors? Putting cover everywhere in there completely defeats the purpose of having any other portion of the map or 'tactical' approach.

It's a strategic decision: Take the shortcuts with no cover to save time, or take the long routes with cover. Saying "This is the only route I want to use, so give me cover everywhere." limits options and cuts down on strategic decision making... That's the exact opposite of what I assume you actually want - More options. Your train of thought currently does nothing to improve the actual quality of the map.

[RussianWolf]

Alistair Winter, on 21 June 2016 - 03:48 AM, said:

I wasn't going to say much about Forest Colony until I had played it, but now that I've seen the Phoenix Hawk preview where Sean Lang (Phil) shows us the changes, I'll just go right out and say it.

This was probably an improvement. But it was, in the words of Phil, "a slight improvement". Because, he says, as we all know, the fighting takes place in a very tiny area of the map. He also points out that to move around the mountains now is a far longer journey than before, before you get back to the fighting.

Spoiler

You know the big irony behind this change? This is the sort of evidence I would point to when I say that PGI map designers either don't know what they're doing, or they're fully aware that what they're doing is not what the players are asking for. The irony is that people wanted to level the mountains in order to spread the action all over the map.

Ironically, PGI's solution has made the pass a more viable approach, but just as another way to attack the same 'grind zone' where all the fighting was happening already. In other words, they took the one alternative route on the map and moved it closer to the 'grind zone'. So now, we have even less reason to visit the E-line and F-line. They effectively made the map smaller, in a sense.

Now, Phil's solution is to use the northern mountain range creatively to give players a reason to go there. Something like a tunnel (people have been begging for this) or a new canyon or a pass over the mountains, or a combination of these. Personally, I'd prefer an ability to climb on top of the mountains and have a plateau there, like the old comm tower plateau next to the village in G7. But I would not upset if there was a tunnel there. And I would be thrilled if they just removed the whole mountain range, but I suspect that the mountains are there so that your computer doesn't have to render everything behind those mountains.



Phil called this a "slight improvement, nothing crazy". Actuallly, one might argue that it's probably not an improvement at all. We got a more useful alternative route, which is good. But the action is now more concentrated, which is bad. So we broke even.

PGI needs to revisit this map and listen to the players more. Or just listen to Phil, he seems to have a clear idea of what's wrong with this map.

Russ is like Luigi.....

[vocifer]

DrxAbstract, on 21 June 2016 - 06:05 AM, said:

Doesn't invoking strategic decision making require a legitimate differentiation of options weighed against various factors? Putting cover everywhere in there completely defeats the purpose of having any other portion of the map or 'tactical' approach.

It's a strategic decision: Take the shortcuts with no cover to save time, or take the long routes with cover. Saying "This is the only route I want to use, so give me cover everywhere." limits options and cuts down on strategic decision making... That's the exact opposite of what I assume you actually want - More options. Your train of thought currently does nothing to improve the actual quality of the map.

That's exactly why every match the fight is happening in the same area:
We have same exact route which is both shortest and with most of cover. And every other route (path/water) being longer and more exposed.
GGPGI

[Goit]

I know its called forest colony but get rid of some the trees. It's such a messy map.

[RussianWolf]

Sean Lang, on 21 June 2016 - 04:17 AM, said:

It's a small improvement, and I expect more like this will occur. PGI now having 3 map designers will open up the doors to quick fixes/adjustments! Looking forward to seeing changes to Bog & Terra Therma in the future!

You have much more faith in PGI than I do at this point.

[Mystere]

Alistair Winter, on 21 June 2016 - 03:48 AM, said:

Ironically, PGI's solution has made the pass a more viable approach, but just as another way to attack the same 'grind zone' where all the fighting was happening already.

Just put a nuke with a proximity sensor and timer right in the middle of that area. Stay too long in there and

Boom!

Edited by Mystere, 21 June 2016 - 06:54 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

I'll play PGI's role. Opinions do not Matter^TM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

DrxAbstract, on 21 June 2016 - 06:05 AM, said:

It's a strategic decision: Take the shortcuts with no cover to save time

The fact there is no cover is the reason it isn't actually a strategic decision, you only take that route if you need save time (in other words, you are pushing) and you never want to push into firing lines if you have no cover to utilize on the approach. Not to mention this will probably funnel people just like the old pathway adding yet another incentive to never take it, just like the tunnel from old forest colony.

[Jables McBarty]

I agree--it's an improvement, but barely. Should have added a second path, not moved the only one.

I recently considered the viability of flanking around D10 into E8--a move inspired by tactics from Scouting. But I spawned with Charlie Lance in E12, and it would take fully 8 squares to get to engagement zone G8, as opposed to the 6 to get to H9. Exposed for half that time. Just not worth it.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Jables McBarty, on 21 June 2016 - 07:14 AM, said:

Should have added a second path, not moved the only one.

No, they should've flattened the mountain rather than trying to path people through claustrophobic pathways, otherwise everyone will continue to travel south of the mountain and engage from there.

[Zolaz]

Russ knows what is best for the game ... you dont know what you are talking about. You cant see the Reasons and the Metrics and live on an island. Buy a mech pack even though you arent the target audience any more.

[Sader325]

DrxAbstract, on 21 June 2016 - 06:05 AM, said:

Doesn't invoking strategic decision making require a legitimate differentiation of options weighed against various factors? Putting cover everywhere in there completely defeats the purpose of having any other portion of the map or 'tactical' approach.

It's a strategic decision: Take the shortcuts with no cover to save time, or take the long routes with cover. Saying "This is the only route I want to use, so give me cover everywhere." limits options and cuts down on strategic decision making... That's the exact opposite of what I assume you actually want - More options. Your train of thought currently does nothing to improve the actual quality of the map.

Except your wrong. They removed 2 or three trees from the entrance of the path that gave you quick accessible cover as you came out and blocked line of sight to the entrance. It was there before its gone now.

You were saying?